Hey guys,
not exactly an overwhelming response, but better some interest then none :)
To respond to concerns/questions (and a rant on subject of jitter):
@Marktherob2005: Jitter cannot be "bypassed". What can be done with it, is to replace significant jitter that occurs in transmission (USB,HDMI,...let's not talk about TCP/IP), with insignificant jitter that is inherent to high-precision clock source. This is called re-clocking, and is a very simple form of FIFO buffer - where the FO part is under control of high precision local clock source.
Pretty much any DAC chip, with pretensions to audiophile quality, made in last 10 years or so, has an input for external clock, and FIFO buffer is a necessity of most DAC designs - DSD or PCM. Weather the manufacturer of the commercial DAC product chooses to use it, is another matter. Certainly, there is "some" cost involved. Perhaps they prefer to sell you extra 1000$ worth of special USB interface and cables instead - model "SuperSnakeOil 5000 Ultra XL". If often helps to remember that marketing guys like solutions they can sell, and they do there best to find problems this solutions can then "solve". Sounds familiar?
Audio professionals have a field day with this stuff, as every pro DAC ever made, has a separate clock input for this exact reason. Then you connect that to something like Apogee's Big Ben, and laugh.
not exactly an overwhelming response, but better some interest then none :)
To respond to concerns/questions (and a rant on subject of jitter):
@Marktherob2005: Jitter cannot be "bypassed". What can be done with it, is to replace significant jitter that occurs in transmission (USB,HDMI,...let's not talk about TCP/IP), with insignificant jitter that is inherent to high-precision clock source. This is called re-clocking, and is a very simple form of FIFO buffer - where the FO part is under control of high precision local clock source.
Pretty much any DAC chip, with pretensions to audiophile quality, made in last 10 years or so, has an input for external clock, and FIFO buffer is a necessity of most DAC designs - DSD or PCM. Weather the manufacturer of the commercial DAC product chooses to use it, is another matter. Certainly, there is "some" cost involved. Perhaps they prefer to sell you extra 1000$ worth of special USB interface and cables instead - model "SuperSnakeOil 5000 Ultra XL". If often helps to remember that marketing guys like solutions they can sell, and they do there best to find problems this solutions can then "solve". Sounds familiar?
Audio professionals have a field day with this stuff, as every pro DAC ever made, has a separate clock input for this exact reason. Then you connect that to something like Apogee's Big Ben, and laugh.
Even the cheapest clock in year 2014 beats the best jitter minimising transmission method(s), by a huge margin. Assuming that the originating clock was any good in the first place - if it was not, then by a huge huge giganormous margin.. Most receivers I am targeting with this solution, have reasonable clock in them, that they need because of the nature of HDMI, as much as they need it for the DSP functionality for DRC and similar. Therefore, the answer (????????????) is, that the proposed solution is as good in respect to jitter, as your receiver is. Which is typically not bad at all.
Second, Windows is not an option, as both Windows sound sub-system, and AMD/NVidia/Intel HDMI drivers are closed source. I have some indication that Microsoft actually passes bitstreams as-is when they are not flagged properly, even if this is not documented anywhere... but I have no desire to fiddle with an engine under hood welded shut.
"My receiver does play DSD thru the usb port and only 2.0." - You have an receiver that accepts DSD stream over USB? You probably mean that your receiver reads DSD file from a storage device connected to receiver's USB port?
"If it could be pushed out of the USB port???????????? " - Of course it can, you can do that today - even on Windows :) But you probably mean "to push DSD files onto the storage device, which is connected to receiver's USB port". Which you also can, by buying any simple single disk NAS device that has an USB port. Connect USB port to the receiver, Ethernet port to your network, and drag and drop DSD files from your networked PC onto the NAS. Done.
> Re the Main Question of interest in playing DSD from a PC.. I have NO interest and wondered if you'd
> considered an alternative solution might exist to save the spend, work, maintenance, and hassle?.
Not sure who was quoted here, but what would that "alternative solution" be?
@pjmckay: what I am proposing, does not impact ISO vs. extracted files playback - you can use both to send DSD over HDMI. SACD ISO file is just a file system container for DSD files. Weather you choose to extract them on the fly, or in advance, has no impact to my proposal.
I agree that if hardware devices played SACD ISOs, all of this would not be such an issue. But they don't, and they never will (for copyright reasons). You can play DSD files on few hardware devices that can pass DSD trough HDMI, such as Oppo - if you are happy using 20th century user interface, and a suitcase full of limitations. Or DLNA, which is just plain awful, IMNSHO. My goal is to replace hardware player, with a fan-less, always-on PC, that can output DSD over HDMI. To quote you, "Sit on couch; power on hifi, play music. :-)"
Andrej
Andrej Falout
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NZ: +64(21)02566825 AU: +61(45)1166010 US: +1(360)4880970 HR:+385(91)1520436
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Highlander <garypahler@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it is a good idea and would use it. The idea of leaving optical media playback, mostly behind, sounds intriguing.
On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:08:46 AM UTC-5, Andrej Falout wrote:This means that millions of native DSD capable, multi-channel DACs already in people's homes (called "Home Theatre Receivers" / AVRs), cannot be used for native DSD playback. Instead, a surround sound DSD enthusiast needs to spend a lot of $$$ for something he/she already has - just with a different kind of connector on it (USB instead of HDMI). (1)There are currently several solution for playing SACD (and DVD-A) ISOs, on both Windows and Linux, but neither of this operating systems allow DSD to be transmitted over HDMI - as SACD players do.Hi there,just a short note to gauge the interest, or the lack of, in the following idea:On Windows, drivers for all HDMI capable cards (Intel, Nvidia, AMD) are closed source, so this is a non-started.On Linux, I spent several weeks doing gap analysis, and I am now reasonably confident that it can be done. (2)
The end result would be that you could replace your SACD player completely, and play SACD ISOs from the hard disk, over HDMI as DSD, and to your receiver. (3)So before I take this any further, I would want to know - do you guys think this is a good idea, and would use it?ThanksAndrej FaloutFootnotes:
(1) And that is assuming there are any desirable multi-channel DSD DACs to buy, which I'm not entirely convinced of.
(2) On Linux, there are currently only two apps that play SACD ISO (Jriver and MPD) but I would think that this should not be a significant reason for concern?(3) Perhaps you do not cherish the idea of fiddling with Linux, but would be happy to use a packaged solution/appliance, that you can control with a remote app?--
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