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Monday, December 31, 2012

Re: [SurroundSound] PCM v DSD Comparison... what's the key to the best experience? -- listen and learn?

T'weren't zoop, t'wer me

 

On 12/31/12 21:32, Tab Cursor wrote:

Zoop,

This thread sure took an interesting and unexpected turn. I have not read Floyd Toole's book, though I've just picked up a copy. It looks like a great read. Thank you.

I think the Meyer & Moran reference was brought up in a similar but different thread here awhile back. I find myself having more questions than answers. One link:

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=4&blogId=1

Is it just my imagination that hi rez audio -- especially lossless bluray surround -- is better than CD audio? Does CD audio contain all we need to listen on a surroundsound set up?

I once owned a very expensive Yamaha CD player that I swore really made CD audio "all that". I'm wondering, does it take a special "high priced" CD player to get that "in the studio" feel? Looking around Crutchfield, I see some CD players go for $2,000 to $4,000 USD. Is that what it takes to get the same feel? Or is the "hi rez" stuff just smoke and mirrors?

Also, the only surround format that I know of in CD quality is DTS CD. Is that also the only format we need to fully appreciate surround?

And what about LPs? Didn't those who love their vinyl really hate the sterile digital CD?

So many questions. How do we appreciate the CD in our current set ups?

Anyway, thanks for the info. Any further thoughts are greatly appreciated.

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:46:14 PM UTC-8, zoop wrote:

1) they were *recorded* at equal volume, according to Puget Sounds.  Lavorgna did not verify that  *play back* on his rig  was in fact level matched.

 

2)  'taking off your glasses' is a rather casual method of 'blinding' (and at best, *single* blinding).   And for all the detail Lavorgna gave about his rig, he gave very little detail about his 'blind' listening 'test'.   It seemed almost an afterthought.

 

3) The fact that 'unscientific impressions' fall in line with Lavorgna's is no more impressive than the fact people tend to prefer the pricier of two wines even when they're in fact both the same wine.  When people believe going in that one audio format is 'high resolution' and the other isn't, that is very likely to color their 'unscientific impressions' of what they hear.   And those people are not using *just* their ears to judge..unless, of course, they are participating in a real blind test.

 

 

On 12/29/12 14:45, August Bleed wrote:

It seems to indicate he used test tones to ensure that the audio was at equal volume and the same equipment. I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism of an unscientific comparison of word length and sampling rates.  He pretty much says this when he indicates his 'blind' testing meant he took off his glasses. It seems to be one man's opinion-and is represented as such. It's worth noting that his unscientific impressions seem to fall in line with what the vast majority of folks hear when they listen to these different versions if you use CA or this forum as small examples--with their unique equipment choices and such.  Unscientific?  Sure.  Invalid?  Only if you're not using your ears.  


On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssu...@panix.com> wrote:

I would expect small differences to be more difficult to perceive in surround, based on previous psychoacoustics work  (see Floyd Toole's book)

 

But Lavorgna's article has basic flaws.  His 'blind test' was inadequately blinded, and apparently there was no attempt to confirm levels were matched.   And presto, higher numbrs = better sound.  Audiophile preconceptions confirmed again! He also takes the Meridian quote about Redbook being 'inadequate' out of context.  And he fails to mention that the Meridian white paper contains zero, nada, no listening test data.  As a historical sidenote, when that paper appeared in JAES, it prompted as strong critical rejoinder from other AES notables in the digital audio realm, in the letters-to-the-editor section, which in turn prompted  the famous Meyer & Moran DSD vs Redbook work.

 

 

On 12/29/12 13:20, Tab Cursor wrote:

This is an interesting read. He does something I never do -- compare his audio collection in 2-channel listening. Do you think his observations also apply to surround sound?

Enjoy!

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd


 

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{allcanada} Photos: Carly Rae Jepsen performs during New Year's Eve celebrations in Times Square in New York December 31, 2012

{allcanada} OHL: VIENNEAU STELLAR AS WOLVES TAKE DOWN COLTS

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The Barrie Colts unloaded all their firepower and then some, but couldn't find a way to overcome a spectacular performance by Sudbury goaltender Joel Vienneau.

Vienneau made 54 saves Monday night as the Wolves beat the Colts 4-1 in Ontario Hockey League action.

Vienneau stopped the first 54 attempts he faced before the Colts scored with 1:17 left in regulation to break the shutout.

Jacob Harris had a pair of goals for Sudbury (16-16-7), which has picked up points in eight straight contests.

Josh Leivo and Mathew Campagna had the other goals for the Wolves. Campagna, who also recorded an assist in the victory, is riding a 14-game point streak.

Elsewhere in the OHL it was: Brampton 5, Mississauga 2; Kingston 7, Ottawa 5; Plymouth 5, Windsor 2; Sault Ste. Marie 7, Saginaw 3; London 3, Sarnia 2; and Niagara 7, Erie 4.

At Barrie, Ont., Zach Hall had the lone goal for the Colts (24-11-1), who lost their second game in a row without Mark Scheifele and Anthony Camara. Both are playing for Canada at the world junior hockey championship.

Both teams were unable to strike on the man advantage. The Colts went 0 for 6 on the power play, while Sudbury finished the night at 0 for 1.

Barrie's Mathias Niederberger turned aside 35 shots in defeat.

Battalion 5, Steelheads 2

At Brampton, Ont., Nick Paul had a hat trick to lead the Battalion (19-14-6) past Mississauga (19-14-3).

---

Frontenacs 7, 67's 5

At Ottawa, Ryan Kujawinski scored a hat trick and Kingston (18-16-2) had four unanswered goals in the third period to rally past the 67's (10-24-3).

---

Whalers 5, Spitfires 2

At Windsor, Ont., Garrett Meurs scored twice and Alex Nedeljkovic made 38 saves as Plymouth (16-12-8) shot down the Spitfires (14-18-6).

---

Greyhounds 7, Spirit 3

At Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., defenceman Ryan Sproul scored three goals to lead the Greyhounds (19-17-2) past Saginaw (15-18-5).

---

Knights 3, Sting 2

At Sarnia, Ont., Bo Horvat's two goals helped London (32-5-2) beat Sarnia (20-13-3) for the Knights' 24th straight victory.

---

IceDogs 7, Otters 4

At St. Catharines, Ont., Steven Shipley's three goals helped the IceDogs (22-14-2) rally past Erie (12-21-5).

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{allcanada} QMJHL: ZILBERT SCORES THREE AS SEA DOGS BEAT WILDCATS

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SAINT JOHN, N.B. -- Noah Zilbert scored a hat trick and Sebastien Auger made 48 saves as the Saint John Sea Dogs beat the Moncton Wildcats 3-1 in Monday's lone Quebec Major Junior Hockey Game.

Zilbert scored at 10:40 and 14:08 of the first period then added his third into an empty net in the final minute of the game for Saint John (17-20-0).

Yannick Veilleux had the only goal for Moncton (23-14-1) on the power play 6:33 into the first period.

Wildcats goaltender Cole Holowenko meanwhile stopped 19 shots.

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Re: [SurroundSound] PCM v DSD Comparison... what's the key to the best experience? -- listen and learn?

Posted it over on reddit to see some of the other views.

http://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/15mxan/pcm_v_dsd_comparison_16441_2496_24192_64x_dsd/

Zoop,

This thread sure took an interesting and unexpected turn. I have not read Floyd Toole's book, though I've just picked up a copy. It looks like a great read. Thank you.

I think the Meyer & Moran reference was brought up in a similar but different thread here awhile back. I find myself having more questions than answers. One link:

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=4&blogId=1

Is it just my imagination that hi rez audio -- especially lossless bluray surround -- is better than CD audio? Does CD audio contain all we need to listen on a surroundsound set up?

I once owned a very expensive Yamaha CD player that I swore really made CD audio "all that". I'm wondering, does it take a special "high priced" CD player to get that "in the studio" feel? Looking around Crutchfield, I see some CD players go for $2,000 to $4,000 USD. Is that what it takes to get the same feel? Or is the "hi rez" stuff just smoke and mirrors?

Also, the only surround format that I know of in CD quality is DTS CD. Is that also the only format we need to fully appreciate surround?

And what about LPs? Didn't those who love their vinyl really hate the sterile digital CD?

So many questions. How do we appreciate the CD in our current set ups?

Anyway, thanks for the info. Any further thoughts are greatly appreciated.

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:46:14 PM UTC-8, zoop wrote:

1) they were *recorded* at equal volume, according to Puget Sounds.  Lavorgna did not verify that  *play back* on his rig  was in fact level matched.

 

2)  'taking off your glasses' is a rather casual method of 'blinding' (and at best, *single* blinding).   And for all the detail Lavorgna gave about his rig, he gave very little detail about his 'blind' listening 'test'.   It seemed almost an afterthought.

 

3) The fact that 'unscientific impressions' fall in line with Lavorgna's is no more impressive than the fact people tend to prefer the pricier of two wines even when they're in fact both the same wine.  When people believe going in that one audio format is 'high resolution' and the other isn't, that is very likely to color their 'unscientific impressions' of what they hear.   And those people are not using *just* their ears to judge..unless, of course, they are participating in a real blind test.

 

 

On 12/29/12 14:45, August Bleed wrote:

It seems to indicate he used test tones to ensure that the audio was at equal volume and the same equipment. I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism of an unscientific comparison of word length and sampling rates.  He pretty much says this when he indicates his 'blind' testing meant he took off his glasses. It seems to be one man's opinion-and is represented as such. It's worth noting that his unscientific impressions seem to fall in line with what the vast majority of folks hear when they listen to these different versions if you use CA or this forum as small examples--with their unique equipment choices and such.  Unscientific?  Sure.  Invalid?  Only if you're not using your ears.  


On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssu...@panix.com> wrote:

I would expect small differences to be more difficult to perceive in surround, based on previous psychoacoustics work  (see Floyd Toole's book)

 

But Lavorgna's article has basic flaws.  His 'blind test' was inadequately blinded, and apparently there was no attempt to confirm levels were matched.   And presto, higher numbrs = better sound.  Audiophile preconceptions confirmed again! He also takes the Meridian quote about Redbook being 'inadequate' out of context.  And he fails to mention that the Meridian white paper contains zero, nada, no listening test data.  As a historical sidenote, when that paper appeared in JAES, it prompted as strong critical rejoinder from other AES notables in the digital audio realm, in the letters-to-the-editor section, which in turn prompted  the famous Meyer & Moran DSD vs Redbook work.

 

 

On 12/29/12 13:20, Tab Cursor wrote:

This is an interesting read. He does something I never do -- compare his audio collection in 2-channel listening. Do you think his observations also apply to surround sound?

Enjoy!

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd


 

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Re: [SurroundSound] PCM v DSD Comparison... what's the key to the best experience? -- listen and learn?

Zoop,

This thread sure took an interesting and unexpected turn. I have not read Floyd Toole's book, though I've just picked up a copy. It looks like a great read. Thank you.

I think the Meyer & Moran reference was brought up in a similar but different thread here awhile back. I find myself having more questions than answers. One link:

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=4&blogId=1

Is it just my imagination that hi rez audio -- especially lossless bluray surround -- is better than CD audio? Does CD audio contain all we need to listen on a surroundsound set up?

I once owned a very expensive Yamaha CD player that I swore really made CD audio "all that". I'm wondering, does it take a special "high priced" CD player to get that "in the studio" feel? Looking around Crutchfield, I see some CD players go for $2,000 to $4,000 USD. Is that what it takes to get the same feel? Or is the "hi rez" stuff just smoke and mirrors?

Also, the only surround format that I know of in CD quality is DTS CD. Is that also the only format we need to fully appreciate surround?

And what about LPs? Didn't those who love their vinyl really hate the sterile digital CD?

So many questions. How do we appreciate the CD in our current set ups?

Anyway, thanks for the info. Any further thoughts are greatly appreciated.

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 7:46:14 PM UTC-8, zoop wrote:

1) they were *recorded* at equal volume, according to Puget Sounds.  Lavorgna did not verify that  *play back* on his rig  was in fact level matched.

 

2)  'taking off your glasses' is a rather casual method of 'blinding' (and at best, *single* blinding).   And for all the detail Lavorgna gave about his rig, he gave very little detail about his 'blind' listening 'test'.   It seemed almost an afterthought.

 

3) The fact that 'unscientific impressions' fall in line with Lavorgna's is no more impressive than the fact people tend to prefer the pricier of two wines even when they're in fact both the same wine.  When people believe going in that one audio format is 'high resolution' and the other isn't, that is very likely to color their 'unscientific impressions' of what they hear.   And those people are not using *just* their ears to judge..unless, of course, they are participating in a real blind test.

 

 

On 12/29/12 14:45, August Bleed wrote:

It seems to indicate he used test tones to ensure that the audio was at equal volume and the same equipment. I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism of an unscientific comparison of word length and sampling rates.  He pretty much says this when he indicates his 'blind' testing meant he took off his glasses. It seems to be one man's opinion-and is represented as such. It's worth noting that his unscientific impressions seem to fall in line with what the vast majority of folks hear when they listen to these different versions if you use CA or this forum as small examples--with their unique equipment choices and such.  Unscientific?  Sure.  Invalid?  Only if you're not using your ears.  


On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssu...@panix.com> wrote:

I would expect small differences to be more difficult to perceive in surround, based on previous psychoacoustics work  (see Floyd Toole's book)

 

But Lavorgna's article has basic flaws.  His 'blind test' was inadequately blinded, and apparently there was no attempt to confirm levels were matched.   And presto, higher numbrs = better sound.  Audiophile preconceptions confirmed again! He also takes the Meridian quote about Redbook being 'inadequate' out of context.  And he fails to mention that the Meridian white paper contains zero, nada, no listening test data.  As a historical sidenote, when that paper appeared in JAES, it prompted as strong critical rejoinder from other AES notables in the digital audio realm, in the letters-to-the-editor section, which in turn prompted  the famous Meyer & Moran DSD vs Redbook work.

 

 

On 12/29/12 13:20, Tab Cursor wrote:

This is an interesting read. He does something I never do -- compare his audio collection in 2-channel listening. Do you think his observations also apply to surround sound?

Enjoy!

http://www.audiostream.com/content/dsd-v-pcm-file-comparison-16441-2496-24192-64x-dsd-128x-dsd


 

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{allcanada} NHL will look at NHLPA's counter-proposal

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NEW YORK -- NHL commissioner Gary Bettman says the league will take some time to look at a counter-proposal from the NHL Players' Association.

The offer came during roughly three hours of meetings on Monday afternoon. Bettman indicated that league officials would spend the evening examining the counter-proposal.

"We have to review the response," said Bettman. "There was an opportunity for the players' association to highlight the areas that they thought we should focus on based on their response. And that's something we've now got to look at very closely in addition to the myriad of other issues."

The next meeting time has not been finalized but Bettman hopes the two sides can resume talks by midday Tuesday. The union's offer was said to be a full one and came a few days after the league made some movement in 288-page proposal delivered Thursday night.

"We covered the range of subjects they covered," said Fehr. "Their document included a very long list of contract language as opposed to bullet-point items. We have not attempted to do that.

"I don't even want to attempt to do that until we know what we're trying to agree on."

The sides are looking to reach an agreement in time to play a shortened season that would see the playoffs end before July. For that to happen, Bettman has told the union that a deal would need to be reached by Jan. 11 so the puck could be dropped Jan. 19.

"What we've said is we need to drop the puck by Jan. 19 if we're going to play a 48-game season," said Bettman. "We don't think it makes sense to play a season that is any shorter than that."

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{allcanada} Justin Bieber gets another tattoo

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Justin Bieber took to Instagram to show off his newest tattoo.

The already inked 18-year-old singer added three roses to the already existing praying hand from March on his lower left calf.

This isn't his first set of tattoos, or his first Internet reveal. He posted a shirtless photo that showed off a new crown tattoo on his upper chest in September.

And even earlier this month, Bieber showed off a new owl tattoo inked on his left forearm on Ellen DeGeneres.

His oldest ink was a bird on his hip at 16-years-old, followed by the Hebrew word for Jesus on his ribcage.

Bieber also has a Japanese Kanji symbol for music on his right arm, the word "Believe' tattooed on his left arm and, lastly, an image of Jesus on the back of his left leg.

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{allcanada} ARGONAUTS SIGN CANADIAN OFFENSIVE GUARD EPPELE TO EXTENSION

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TORONTO -- The Toronto Argonauts have signed Canadian guard Joe Eppele to a contract extension through the 2014 season.

Eppele, who was slated to become a free agent, was selected by Toronto with the second overall pick in the 2010 CFL Canadian Draft.

"Joe is a young, talented player who stepped in during the playoffs and did a very good job for our team," Argonauts general manager Jim Barker said Monday in a release. "He continues to develop his skills and has made great strides towards becoming the player we believed he'd eventually become when we drafted him in the first round.

"Securing quality, young Canadians, like Joe, will help us build upon our Grey Cup championship and ensure our team is positioned for long-term success."

Eppele, 25, played in all 18 regular-season games last season. The six-foot-eight, 304-pound native of Brackendale, B.C., also started three playoff games, including Toronto's Grey Cup win over Calgary at Rogers Centre.

"I wanted to extend my time in Toronto because I love this city, and even the locker-room feels like home," he said.

"My teammates are like family and I believe that winning the 100th Grey Cup with them was just the beginning of more great things to come."

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{allcanada} Ryan Nugent-Hopkins Shining at World Juniors

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2011 was a fantastic year for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins on almost every level. He had a strong season in the WHL with the Red Deer Rebels, earning a total of 31 goals and 75 assists for 106 points and, as a result, was selected as the 1st overall pick in the 2011 NHL Entry Draft by the Edmonton Oilers. By all accounts, it was an incredible year for the young Burnaby, BC native.

The one thing that Nugent-Hopkins could not add to his 2011 achievements list, however, was a making the Team Canada roster at the2011 World Junior Hockey Tournament. Though he was one of the final cuts, he never laced up with the squad that included names like Eric Gudbranson, Sean Couturier and Brayden Schenn.

Following an impressive training-camp with the Oilers to kick-off the 2011-12 NHL season, Ryan was named as a member of the NHL squad and ultimately played the full season for the Oilers. That meant he was not made available to suit up for Team Canada at the 2012 World Juniors. It didn't look like Nugent-Hopkins would ever get his chance to play in the world class event.

Fast forward to 2012-13. With the NHL owners' lockout in full-swing, Ryan was once again given the opportunity to play for his country at the World Juniors, something that many Canadian kids dream of. After his impressive rookie NHL season with the Edmonton Oilers in 2012, Nugent-Hopkins not only secured his spot on Canada's 2013 World Junior squad – he was named Captain.

Coach Steve Spott made a good choice too, because Nugent-Hopkins' WJC debut has been nothing short of spectacular. In their opening game against Germany, Nugent-Hopkins led the team to a 9-3 victory with five points – a Canadian World Junior record for points in a single-game. By Friday, December 28th, Nugent-Hopkins and his Canadian teammates had improved their tournament record to 2-0 after defeating Slovakia 6-3 in a tense game that had emotions running high. Nugent-Hopkins has shown to his teammates and to the rest of the international junior hockey world exactly why he was the top draft picka couple of years ago, as his skating and vision with the puck are untouchable. 

His play has led Canada to strong back-to-back wins to open the tournament, with Nugent-Hopkins and his teammates pulling out a 2-1 win over the United States and then defeating Russia 4-1 to close out the opening round of play.

With Nugent-Hopkins leading the way for an impressive supporting cast of Canadian teammates, the young Oilers forward is hoping to bring home a gold medal for his country, something that Canada has not accomplished in the past three tournaments.

Nugent-Hopkins has been waiting for this moment for a long time and is determined to help his team do everything it can to make that dream come true.

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{allcanada} NHL labor talks slated for Monday afternoon

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NEW YORK (AP) -- The NHL and the players' association are using the last day of 2012 to get back to work on a labor deal that has so far been well out of reach.

Negotiations are scheduled for Monday afternoon at the league's New York office. This marks the first time the NHL and the union will be bargaining in nearly three weeks, and the first time they will do so without federal mediation since early December.

The window to reach a deal to save the season is rapidly closing. The belief is the NHL wants to start playing no later than Jan. 19.

The league and the union had informational discussions with staff members that lasted much of Saturday and ended Sunday. Those talks were spurred by an NHL contract proposal Thursday.

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