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Thursday, December 4, 2014

Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Any interest in PC playing DSD over HDMI?

Hi,

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 7:22 PM, <traderham@gmail.com> wrote:

 I'm now wondering if it actually can if Windows allowed it (which you've made clear that it doesn't and probably never will).

Oppo HDMI receiver (as opposed to transmitter) would need to have DSD pass-trough implemented, which it does not. As the only devices currently able to transmit DSD over HDMI are SACD players. So it definitely does not make sense for Oppo to had implemented that. It would result in ability for an SACD player to use another SACD player as a DAC... nonsense.

On the subject of Windows "allowing it", ironically, Microsoft explicitly specifies possibility for the "third party solution" for both DSD and DST :
 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316761%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

"Microsoft-provided HD Audio class driver supports PCM, AC3, DTS, AAC, Dolby Digital Plus, WMA Pro, MAT(MLP) formats. The GUIDs for the compressed audio formats that are not supported by the HD audio class driver and can be implemented by third-party solutions are listed in the following table.

CEA 861 Type     SubFormat GUID     Description

00000008-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ATRAC     Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) 0x09 

00000009-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ONE_BIT_AUDIO <<<<<<<<<<<<<< !!!!!!!    One-Bit Audio 0x0d 

0000000d-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_DST <<<<<<<<<<<<<< !!!!!!! Direct Stream Transport (DST)—lossless compressed DSD (Direct Stream Digital). "

That is all in CEA 861 specs anyway.

I just dont want to gamble on proprietary closed source drivers (NVidia, AMD, Intel) on Windows handling this correctly, as if they dont, there is nothing I will be able to do about it.


 Oppo's A-synchronous USB input does allow DSD - but only two channel.  This is the surround forum and I love multichannel audio, so I'm really hoping Oppo's next player will allow multichannel DSD through it's A-synch USB input.  

Oh yes please :) I'm cheering for that one. And with appropriate USB controller, that would be a peace of cake to implement. I am almost betting they will do that.

Anyone knows when will Oppo replace current line - it's been over 2 years now?
 
However, that is for me less desirable then just using my existing multichannel DAC with HDMI input, as I already have it, and it's really really good. :)

Additionally, with this method, at least 5 million of the receivers already in people's living rooms worldwide would magically become DSD multi-channel capable DACs. (5m is my estimate of AVRs with DSD DACs that have HDMI inputs, manufactured in last 10 years. Just Onkyo made some 3 millions in that period)


Oppo's regular USB input (in which you connect a mass storage device) can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files.  But as you nailed it on the head, the interface leaves a lot to be desired.  I hate it.

Not to mention that even if you accepted all the UI limitations, and also format limitations, meta-data limitations... one still has to extract DSD from ISOs first. Something that would take a considerable effort, time, disk space and therefore money (in my case)
 
 UPNP/DLNA can also pass DSD (stereo and multichannel), but is an absolute headache for those of us who like to keep the ISO format and not extract to DSF/DFF.  This is why I stick to using Foobar and having it convert to PCM and then pass to my Oppo via HDMI.  

You can also stream native DSD to Oppo via UPnP directly from FooBar - therefore ISO. Tried it, it works - most of the time. Then it stops working. Then it works if it's sunny. As we agree, UPnP is a mess. To say it politely. Shame really.
 

The Exasound is the only DAC I'm aware of that can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files through it's USB from the computer.  At $3,800, it's just not worth it to me.

I wonder when will someone with more HW skills then mine, take something like

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-32384-DSD-32Bit-384KHz-1bit-5-6MHz-DSD128-8Channels-DAC-Based-on-ES9018-/231018237895

And marry it with something like :

http://www.rigisystems.net/index.php/usbpalen.html

First class (Ess 9018) 8-channel DSD DAC right there, with PSU and case, maybe 500$

Add I/V converter for custom analogue stages (98 USD):

 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IV-3D-8CH-IV-Converter-for-DAC-32384-DSD-/231018253718

 

I'm very interested in your solutions.  But I don't know anything about Linux and not about to take the time to learn and build a separate Linux computer.  I'm confused about your all-in-one box solution.  Is it a separate device that will connect to my Windows computer via USB or other interface?  Or is it a standalone unit - where I need to connect a monitor, keyboard, and mouse to it directly? 

Plenty of appliance-type fanless devices based on Linux are readily available; such as Vortexbox based (Sonore and the likes) and plenty of cheap stuff on eBay such as http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2TB-Vortexbox-NAS-CD-Ripper-Music-Server-Streamer-For-Apple-SONOS-Squeezebox-/171554379151
 
They are intended for use and "headless", always-on appliances, eg. no monitor, no keyboard. They are controlled trough the iOS/Android remote apps (MPD/SBS/LMS/...which there are abundance to choose from, based on your idea of good user interface) and trough standard web browsers.

You can naturally use any PC barebones or otherwise, instead, such as 175$ Intel NUC: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Intel-BOXDN2820FYKH0-Single-Pack-DN2820FYK-NUC-/390847876243 and simply put a appropriate audiophile distro on it - which is dead easy. Maybe even VortexBox :)

"Official".... LOL "not public beta version" Double-LOL :)


A big concern would be it's interface.  I've spent quite some time learning to use and customize Foobar.  I've gotten just the way I want it.  Some people prefer JRiver or XBMC.  Can the interface in your one-box solution keep everyone happy???  I guess we need more details.

Well if you insist on the full-blown GUI with a keyboard mouse and monitor attached to the box (why?) you could go with  http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id

Which is just Intel NUC with pre-installed Linux and JRiver app. Note that statement on that page:

"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI. "

... is confirmed to be incorrect. I had requested JRiver guys to remove it several times, but they had chosen to ignore me. It should read "Multichannel is supported over HDMI"

Foobar is not in this game I'm afraid, even if it does run on Linux via Wine, it does not have direct access to Alsa - which will be required to pass DSD over HDMI.
 

And lastly, thanks for all your efforts into this hobby!  


Cheers :)

Andrej
 

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Posted by Cidinha at 11:53 PM

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