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Friday, November 30, 2012

Re: [SurroundSound] Digest for surroundsound@googlegroups.com - 21 Messages in 2 Topics

fascinating discussion here. I have never posted anything on this group but have always enjoyed reading what all you have to say about surround sound and for me I subscribed to this group to stay update with new technology and music. And this discussion about surround in the car and then turning to file formats, alac, aac and all that stuff. I my self have for some time been going through a debate in my mind which file format to use for my ripped music. At first I used Microsuck wma format since at 192kbs it "should" sound as good as mp3 at higher bit rate but the fact of using a format that is proprietary and the more the people use it the more we will be depended on them (and the more money they have to gain). After wma I looked at AAC but didn't like Itunes and then I found haven when reading about flac and to me flac is fantastic and I don't see why we should ever need anything else. But for company's like Apple and Micro$oft they have nothing to gain from it. Therefor they will not support it.

So to me, it doesn't matter whether these company's make products people enjoy to use and appear to be fulfilling there needs (like I pad's, Ipod, I phone, windblows 7, Itunes or what ever product they make) it is immorally wrong to buy and use them because they lock you in and the more they lock us in the more money they can make. It is all about the bottom line. I am sure this is no new news for many here, from reading many of your response I see there are a few of you who kinda have the "Richard Stallman" philosophy.

But that is why I try to only use Flac and OGG Vorbis and only buy (vote for) products that support those file formats.

What is good for the mega corporations is more often then not never good for the general public, they just make us think it is with propaganda and handcuff us to there technology (why else would you need to "jailbreak" your Ipad's?).

Regards from Iceland
Birgir.


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 5:24 AM, <surroundsound@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/surroundsound/topics

    Joe A <joe.anstett@gmail.com> Nov 29 06:01AM -0800  

    Regarding Apple and FLAC, Apple and its ecosystem support their own lossless format ALAC. Granted at the moment at only comes by ripping your own CDs in iTunes but if you have a FLAC collection it can be interchangeably converted back and forth with ALAC as there is no generational loss.
     
    Note this applies to 44/16 stereo material. ALAC actually does support high res multichannel but the iDevices are limited in what their DACs can handle.

     

    pj-mckay <johnmckay@btinternet.com> Nov 29 10:49AM -0800  

    And here's the real CRUX of the matter. Apple supports ITS OWN format.
    Why?? Obviously purely to tie folk into their ecosystem further, and
    ties in with why I logged on tonight. Many folk questioned the use of flac
    and open standards quite rightly, and it reminded me that I also have to
    make choices. That's where mp3 hit it off, in the same way as cassettes
    did 40 years ago; It's a common format and should be appreciated more,
    especially at higher bit rates. (Please don't respond telling me AAC is
    lower file size for the same quality; I don't care. It's marginal and
    unimportant)
     
    For me....
    a) MP3 as it plays on ALL my players whether they be PC, iPod, Creative
    Zen, Android, everything.
    b) My video has to be converted to a common format (mpeg) and AC3 audio to
    play in ALL my video devices. I'm not saying it's the best; just that I
    can convert to that successfully.
     
    I have Apple kit in the shape of iphone and pad (from work) and the kids
    have ipods and it's greats stuff but I totally abhor an ecosystem that ties
    you to them and excludes others. Even to the extent that they tried to
    force folk into AAC but at least can play mp3 now. Ooooohh It makes me
    angry that they block every other p[layer from itunes.
     
    So.. whilst Apple may support ALAC. Why would ANYONE want to convert open
    system flac to something 'as good'? Where's the benefit to me, us? I see
    plenty negatives but no positives (but will listen to sensible responses).
     
     
     
    On Thursday, 29 November 2012 14:01:25 UTC, Joe A wrote:

     

    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 12:41AM +0530  

    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all
    MP3s together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of
    the source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    > Cannot agree more
    and a lot better put than me
     
    > FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF realafrica
    > SENT:
    28 November 2012 07:33
    > TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    > SUBJECT:
    Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    > I won't attempt to
    cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    > I am a great
    fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to play
    cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor
    part of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to
    play flac. I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine
    as carriers instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over
    the place! But, why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac,
    just as conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess
    any MP3s to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to
    MP3 when it is either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    > I
    have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software
    that played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC
    and their player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from
    them!
    > WTF!
    > Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential
    for the same scenario with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play
    my growing collection of flac either, so they were pretty useless to me
    anyway, as I'd moved on to lossless flac and grown up enough to no
    longer have a use for empty3. But that's just me. If others are
    satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy it.
    > I just can't get it
    through my head why this free, open source format called flac is not as
    readily available to use in car audio as that other free open source
    format called mp3?
     
    > pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB
    sticks, even SSDs in the future maybe, but why not put some nice flac on
    them rather than empty3? Well I gues you are forced to aren't you? After
    all what car audio can play any flac? It's outrageous, it's not
    sensible. It's just market forces that always get dumbed down to cater
    for the masses and I protest it!
     
    > .
     
    > --
    > You received this
    message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SurroundSound"
    group.
    > To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    > For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    > --
    > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    > To post to this group, send email
    to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    > For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
     
     
     
    Links:
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    [1] http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

     

    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 07:17PM  

    SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar
    tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:11
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     

     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of realafrica
    Sent: 28 November 2012 07:33
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I won't attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to
    play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part
    of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac.
    I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But,
    why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s to
    play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when it is
    either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    I have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their
    player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from them!
    WTF!
    Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario
    with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of
    flac either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But
    that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy
    it.
    I just can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future
    maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I
    gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can play any
    flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market forces that
    always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    .
     
     
     
     
    --
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    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 12:52AM +0530  

    And the ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual
    coding is, you would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     
    On
    11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    > SS
     
    > If I come to you and
    remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar tissue (but not
    yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     
    > FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    > SENT: 29 November 2012 19:11
    > TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    > SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    > Maybe someday this list will get beyond the
    ignorance that lumps all MP3s together , ignoring the roles of bitrate,
    codec, characteristics of the source music, and playback equipment. But
    today is not that day, apparently.
     
    > On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman
    wrote:
     
    >> Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     
    FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF realafrica
    >> SENT:
    28 November 2012 07:33
    >> TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >> SUBJECT:
    Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    >> I won't attempt to
    cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    >> I am a
    great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to play
    cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor
    part of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to
    play flac. I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine
    as carriers instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over
    the place! But, why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac,
    just as conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess
    any MP3s to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to
    MP3 when it is either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    >> I
    have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software
    that played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC
    and their player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from
    them!
    >> WTF!
    >> Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential
    for the same scenario with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play
    my growing collection of flac either, so they were pretty useless to me
    anyway, as I'd moved on to lossless flac and grown up enough to no
    longer have a use for empty3. But that's just me. If others are
    satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy it.
    >> I just can't get
    it through my head why this free, open source format called flac is not
    as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open source
    format called mp3?
     
    >> pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB
    sticks, even SSDs in the future maybe, but why not put some nice flac on
    them rather than empty3? Well I gues you are forced to aren't you? After
    all what car audio can play any flac? It's outrageous, it's not
    sensible. It's just market forces that always get dumbed down to cater
    for the masses and I protest it!
     
    >> .
     
    >> --
    >> You received
    this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
    "SurroundSound" group.
    >> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >> For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >> --
    >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >> To post to this group, send
    email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >> To unsubscribe from this
    group, send email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >> For
    more options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    > --
    > You received
    this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
    "SurroundSound" group.
    > To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    > For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    > --
    > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    > To post to this group, send email
    to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    > For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
     
     
     
    Links:
    ------
    [1] http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

     

    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 07:51PM  

    SS
     
    You are so easy to draw; lol
     
    Made my day; thanks
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:23
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    And the ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is,
    you would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar
    tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:11
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     

     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of realafrica
    Sent: 28 November 2012 07:33
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I won't attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to
    play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part
    of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac.
    I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But,
    why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s to
    play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when it is
    either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    I have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their
    player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from them!
    WTF!
    Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario
    with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of
    flac either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But
    that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy
    it.
    I just can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future
    maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I
    gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can play any
    flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market forces that
    always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    .
     
     
     
     
     
    --
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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    To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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    For more options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound
     

     
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    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 01:24AM +0530  

    I never said being ignorant and being a troll were exclusive.
     
    On
    11/30/12 01:21, lokkerman wrote:
     
    > SS
     
    > You are so easy to draw;
    lol
     
    > Made my day; thanks
     
    > FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
     
    SENT: 29 November 2012 19:23
    > TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
     
    SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    > And the
    ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is, you
    would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     
    > On 11/30/12
    00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >> SS
     
    >> If I come to you and remove
    5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar tissue (but not yours) as
    a replacement; would you accept it?
     
    >> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    >> SENT: 29 November 2012 19:11
    >> TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >> SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >> Maybe someday this list will get beyond the
    ignorance that lumps all MP3s together , ignoring the roles of bitrate,
    codec, characteristics of the source music, and playback equipment. But
    today is not that day, apparently.
     
    >> On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman
    wrote:
     
    >>> Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     
    FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF realafrica
     
    SENT: 28 November 2012 07:33
    >>> TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
     
    SUBJECT: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    >>> I won't
    attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    >>> I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I
    have to play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I
    would not swap out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are
    a very minor part of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap
    it out to play flac. I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both)
    would be fine as carriers instead of spinning discs or tape and their
    cases all over the place! But, why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when
    one can use flac, just as conveniently? Much more conveniently for me,
    as I don't possess any MP3s to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB
    music collection to MP3 when it is either flac already or easily
    converted to flac.
    >>> I have never bought into the con of iTunes
    walled garden, mostly because, before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their
    propriety empty3, and software that played them. I bought many of them.
    Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their player and I could no longer play
    the files I had bought from them!
    >>> WTF!
    >>> Since then, I boycott
    $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario with iTunes.
    Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of flac
    either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3.
    But that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let
    them enjoy it.
    >>> I just can't get it through my head why this free,
    open source format called flac is not as readily available to use in car
    audio as that other free open source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the
    future maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3?
    Well I gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can
    play any flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market
    forces that always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest
    it!
     
    >>> .
     
    >>> --
    >>> You received this message because you
    are subscribed to the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>> To post
    to this group, send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>> To
    unsubscribe from this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>> For more options, visit
    this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    --
    >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>> To post to this group, send
    email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>> To unsubscribe from this
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    more options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
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    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 08:00PM  

    And hey I do know that someone who has followed tosh research, with tosh
    dummy heads can come up with tosh dummy science
     
    But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS. BS) by the tosh dummy heads
    themselves, now how's that for a fact..?
     
    But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer reviewed by
    peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos' if it wasn't it
    wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore got to be right?
    Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in the first place,
    however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy head. Now watch you grab
    this one?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:23
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    And the ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is,
    you would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar
    tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:11
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     

     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of realafrica
    Sent: 28 November 2012 07:33
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I won't attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to
    play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part
    of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac.
    I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But,
    why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s to
    play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when it is
    either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    I have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their
    player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from them!
    WTF!
    Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario
    with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of
    flac either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But
    that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy
    it.
    I just can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future
    maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I
    gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can play any
    flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market forces that
    always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    .
     
     
     
     
     
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    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 01:35AM +0530  

    I know you haven't a clue. No need to elaborate the point further.
     
     
    On 11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman wrote:
     
    > And hey I do know that someone
    who has followed tosh research, with tosh dummy heads can come up with
    tosh dummy science
     
    > But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS.
    BS) by the tosh dummy heads themselves, now how's that for a fact….?
     
    > But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer
    reviewed by peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos'
    if it wasn't it wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore
    got to be right? Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in
    the first place, however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy
    head. Now watch you grab this one?
     
    > FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    > SENT: 29 November 2012 19:23
    > TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    > SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    > And the ignorance continues. If you understood
    what perceptual coding is, you would understand that that analogy is
    ludicrous.
     
    > On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >> SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of
    similar tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     
     
    >> FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
     
    SENT: 29 November 2012 19:11
    >> TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
     
    SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    >> Maybe
    someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     
    >> On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >>> Cannot
    agree more and a lot better put than me
     
    >>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF realafrica
    >>> SENT: 28 November 2012 07:33
    >>> TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>> SUBJECT: Re: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >>> I won't attempt to cover everything, point
    by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    >>> I am a great fan of new
    technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to play cassettes in the
    car because it has no CD player and I would not swap out cassettes for
    CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part of my music
    collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac. I fully
    agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers instead
    of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But, why!
    oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s
    to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when
    it is either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    >>> I have never
    bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because, before
    Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and
    their player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from
    them!
    >>> WTF!
    >>> Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the
    potential for the same scenario with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could
    not play my growing collection of flac either, so they were pretty
    useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to lossless flac and grown up
    enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But that's just me. If others
    are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy it.
    >>> I just can't
    get it through my head why this free, open source format called flac is
    not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    >>> pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I
    like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future maybe, but why not put some
    nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I gues you are forced to
    aren't you? After all what car audio can play any flac? It's outrageous,
    it's not sensible. It's just market forces that always get dumbed down
    to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    >>> .
     
    >>> --
     
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
    Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>> For more
    options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>> --
    >>> You
    received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
    "SurroundSound" group.
    >>> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>> For more
    options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >> --
    >> You
    received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
    "SurroundSound" group.
    >> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >> To unsubscribe from this group, send
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    >> For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >> --
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    email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
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    > --
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    this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 08:06PM  

    On nil to me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 20:05
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I know you haven't a clue. No need to elaborate the point further.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman wrote:
     
    And hey I do know that someone who has followed tosh research, with tosh
    dummy heads can come up with tosh dummy science
     
    But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS. BS) by the tosh dummy heads
    themselves, now how's that for a fact..?
     
    But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer reviewed by
    peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos' if it wasn't it
    wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore got to be right?
    Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in the first place,
    however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy head. Now watch you grab
    this one?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:23
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    And the ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is,
    you would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar
    tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:11
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     

     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of realafrica
    Sent: 28 November 2012 07:33
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I won't attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to
    play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part
    of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac.
    I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But,
    why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s to
    play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when it is
    either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    I have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their
    player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from them!
    WTF!
    Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario
    with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of
    flac either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But
    that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy
    it.
    I just can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future
    maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I
    gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can play any
    flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market forces that
    always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    .
     
     
     
     
     
     
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    John Kleitz <johnkleitz@gmail.com> Nov 30 09:12AM +1300  

    Couldn't agree more, and Apples tendency to secure their share by binding
    users into their formats is very selfish, but understandable in order to
    maximise profits. One huge problem I have with Apple (and other companies)
    is why an American company manufactures almost completely in third world
    countries, rather than the US with it's huge employment problem. Sure, the
    production cost per iPhone may double from maybe $5 to $10 dollars, but
    that would hardly make much difference as the profit per unit is still in
    the hundreds of dollars per unit. Development costs stay the same as that
    is presumably carried out in the US. Now, if all American companies (Nike,
    Microsoft, the list goes on and on) were required to do this, all current
    economic woes for the US would almost instantly be resolved and the tax
    revenue would additionally experience a huge boost.
    Please correct me if you find a fallacy in my argument.
    I realize, I'm drifting off topic again... Sorry 'bout that, but I am very
    interested in your opinion on that.
     

     

    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 01:54AM +0530  

    proudly ignorant of topic: check
     
    expresses vehement opinion about
    that topic: check
     
    declares itself a troll: check
     
    makes typo while
    boasting of superiority: check
     
    You do keep rising to expectations,
    I'll give you that.
     
    On 11/30/12 01:36, lokkerman wrote:
     
    > On nil to
    me
     
    > FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
     
    SENT: 29 November 2012 20:05
    > TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
     
    SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    > I know you
    haven't a clue. No need to elaborate the point further.
     
    > On
    11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >> And hey I do know that someone
    who has followed tosh research, with tosh dummy heads can come up with
    tosh dummy science
     
    >> But in fact it is academically proven (BS,
    BS. BS) by the tosh dummy heads themselves, now how's that for a fact….?
     
     
    >> But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer
    reviewed by peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos'
    if it wasn't it wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore
    got to be right? Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in
    the first place, however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy
    head. Now watch you grab this one?
     
    >> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    >> SENT: 29 November 2012 19:23
    >> TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >> SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >> And the ignorance continues. If you
    understood what perceptual coding is, you would understand that that
    analogy is ludicrous.
     
    >> On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >>> SS
     
    >>> If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give
    you 5Kg of similar tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you
    accept it?
     
    >>> FROM: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com] ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
     
    SENT: 29 November 2012 19:11
    >>> TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
     
    SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    >>> Maybe
    someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     
    >>> On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     
    >>>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF realafrica
    >>>> SENT: 28 November 2012 07:33
    >>>> TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> SUBJECT: Re: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >>>> I won't attempt to cover everything,
    point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    >>>> I am a great fan of new
    technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to play cassettes in the
    car because it has no CD player and I would not swap out cassettes for
    CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part of my music
    collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac. I fully
    agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers instead
    of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But, why!
    oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s
    to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when
    it is either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    >>>> I have
    never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software
    that played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC
    and their player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from
    them!
    >>>> WTF!
    >>>> Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the
    potential for the same scenario with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could
    not play my growing collection of flac either, so they were pretty
    useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to lossless flac and grown up
    enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But that's just me. If others
    are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy it.
    >>>> I just can't
    get it through my head why this free, open source format called flac is
    not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    >>>> pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I
    like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future maybe, but why not put some
    nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I gues you are forced to
    aren't you? After all what car audio can play any flac? It's outrageous,
    it's not sensible. It's just market forces that always get dumbed down
    to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    >>>> .
     
    >>>> --
     
    >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
    Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>> For more
    options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>>> --
     
    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
    Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>> For more
    options, visit this group at
    http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>> --
    >>> You
    received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
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    Links:
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    [1] http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

     

    John Kleitz <johnkleitz@gmail.com> Nov 30 09:29AM +1300  

    Point taken, Promise to shut up now. Ta
     

     

    Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> Nov 30 02:11AM +0530  

    Oh, am I bothering you, dear? Terribly sorry.
     
    On 11/30/12 01:59,
    John Kleitz wrote:
     
    > Point taken, Promise to shut up now. Ta
     
    > On
    Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com>
    wrote:
     
    >> proudly ignorant of topic: check
     
    >> expresses vehement
    opinion about that topic: check
     
    >> declares itself a troll: check
     
     
    >> makes typo while boasting of superiority: check
     
    >> You do
    keep rising to expectations, I'll give you that.
     
    >> On 11/30/12
    01:36, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >>> On nil to me
     
    >>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    >>> SENT: 29 November 2012 20:05
     
    TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>> SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >>> I know you haven't a clue. No need to
    elaborate the point further.
     
    >>> On 11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman
    wrote:
     
    >>>> And hey I do know that someone who has followed tosh
    research, with tosh dummy heads can come up with tosh dummy science
     
     
    >>>> But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS. BS) by the
    tosh dummy heads themselves, now how's that for a fact….?
     
    But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer reviewed
    by peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos' if it
    wasn't it wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore got to
    be right? Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in the first
    place, however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy head. Now
    watch you grab this one?
     
    >>>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    >>>> SENT: 29 November 2012 19:23
     
    >>>> TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> SUBJECT: RE:
    [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     
    >>>> And the ignorance
    continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is, you would
    understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     
    >>>> On 11/30/12
    00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >>>>> SS
     
    >>>>> If I come to you
    and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar tissue (but not
    yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     
    >>>>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF Steven Sullivan
    >>>>> SENT: 29 November 2012 19:11
     
    TO: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>> SUBJECT: RE: [SurroundSound]
    Re: Surround in the car
     
    >>>>> Maybe someday this list will get
    beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s together , ignoring the roles
    of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the source music, and playback
    equipment. But today is not that day, apparently.
     
    >>>>> On
    11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    >>>>>> Cannot agree more and a
    lot better put than me
     
    >>>>>> FROM:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    ON BEHALF OF realafrica
    >>>>>> SENT: 28 November 2012 07:33
    >>>>>> TO:
    surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>>> SUBJECT: Re: [SurroundSound] Re:
    Surround in the car
     
    >>>>>> I won't attempt to cover everything,
    point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    >>>>>> I am a great fan of
    new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to play cassettes in
    the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap out cassettes
    for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part of my
    music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac. I
    fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place!
    But, why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s
    to play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when
    it is either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    >>>>>> I have
    never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software
    that played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC
    and their player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from
    them!
    >>>>>> WTF!
    >>>>>> Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the
    potential for the same scenario with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could
    not play my growing collection of flac either, so they were pretty
    useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to lossless flac and grown up
    enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But that's just me. If others
    are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy it.
    >>>>>> I just
    can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free
    open source format called mp3?
     
    >>>>>> pj-mckay I like your SD
    cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future maybe, but why not put
    some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I gues you are forced to
    aren't you? After all what car audio can play any flac? It's outrageous,
    it's not sensible. It's just market forces that always get dumbed down
    to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    >>>>>> .
     
    >>>>>> --
    >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed
    to the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>>>> To post to this
    group, send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>>> To
    unsubscribe from this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>>>> For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
     
    >>>>>> --
    >>>>>> You received this message because you are
    subscribed to the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>>>> To post to
    this group, send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>>> To
    unsubscribe from this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>>>> For more options,
    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound
    [1]
     
    >>>>> --
    >>>>> You received this message because you are
    subscribed to the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>>> To post to
    this group, send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>> To
    unsubscribe from this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>>> For more options, visit
    this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>>>> --
    >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
    the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>>> To post to this group,
    send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>>> To unsubscribe from
    this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>>> For more options, visit
    this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>>> --
    >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
    the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>> To post to this group,
    send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> To unsubscribe from
    this group, send email to
    SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>>> For more options, visit
    this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    >>>> --
    >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
    the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
    >>>> To post to this group,
    send email to SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>>> To unsubscribe from
    this group, send email to
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    >>>> For more options, visit
    this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    --
    >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
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    group, send email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>> For
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    >>> --
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    received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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    >>> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send
    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
    >>> For more
    options, visit this group at
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    >> --
    >> You
    received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
    "SurroundSound" group.
    >> To post to this group, send email to
    SurroundSound@googlegroups.com
    >> To unsubscribe from this group, send
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    visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound [1]
     
    > --
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    Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
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    email to SurroundSound-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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    Links:
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    [1] http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

     

    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 10:56PM  

    Spalchicker error : check
     
    Humour bypass: check
     
    Hubris error: check
     
    Want more? : check
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 20:42
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Oh, am I bothering you, dear? Terribly sorry.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:59, John Kleitz wrote:
     
    Point taken, Promise to shut up now. Ta
     
    On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote:
     
    proudly ignorant of topic: check
     
    expresses vehement opinion about that topic: check
     
    declares itself a troll: check
     
    makes typo while boasting of superiority: check
     

     
    You do keep rising to expectations, I'll give you that.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:36, lokkerman wrote:
     
    On nil to me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 20:05
     
     
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     

     
    I know you haven't a clue. No need to elaborate the point further.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman wrote:
     
    And hey I do know that someone who has followed tosh research, with tosh
    dummy heads can come up with tosh dummy science
     
    But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS. BS) by the tosh dummy heads
    themselves, now how's that for a fact..?
     
    But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer reviewed by
    peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos' if it wasn't it
    wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore got to be right?
    Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in the first place,
    however to challenge it you need to be a tosh dummy head. Now watch you grab
    this one?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:23
     
     
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     

     
    And the ignorance continues. If you understood what perceptual coding is,
    you would understand that that analogy is ludicrous.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 00:47, lokkerman wrote:
     
    SS
     
    If I come to you and remove 5kg of your flesh and give you 5Kg of similar
    tissue (but not yours) as a replacement; would you accept it?
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 19:11
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Maybe someday this list will get beyond the ignorance that lumps all MP3s
    together , ignoring the roles of bitrate, codec, characteristics of the
    source music, and playback equipment. But today is not that day,
    apparently.
     

     
    On 11/28/12 13:48, lokkerman wrote:
     
    Cannot agree more and a lot better put than me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of realafrica
    Sent: 28 November 2012 07:33
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I won't attempt to cover everything, point by point, in reply to pj-mckay
     
    I am a great fan of new technolgy, even though it was me saying I have to
    play cassettes in the car because it has no CD player and I would not swap
    out cassettes for CD anyway. I have some CDs but they are a very minor part
    of my music collection.I was looking for a way to swap it out to play flac.
    I fully agree that SD cards / USB sicks (both) would be fine as carriers
    instead of spinning discs or tape and their cases all over the place! But,
    why! oh why! degrade sound to MP3 when one can use flac, just as
    conveniently? Much more conveniently for me, as I don't possess any MP3s to
    play and I'm not about to convert my 8TB music collection to MP3 when it is
    either flac already or easily converted to flac.
    I have never bought into the con of iTunes walled garden, mostly because,
    before Apple, $ony had ATRAC as their propriety empty3, and software that
    played them. I bought many of them. Then $ony ditched both ATRAC and their
    player and I could no longer play the files I had bought from them!
    WTF!
    Since then, I boycott $ony and side step the potential for the same scenario
    with iTunes. Historically, iTunes could not play my growing collection of
    flac either, so they were pretty useless to me anyway, as I'd moved on to
    lossless flac and grown up enough to no longer have a use for empty3. But
    that's just me. If others are satisfied with the iTunes deal let them enjoy
    it.
    I just can't get it through my head why this free, open source format called
    flac is not as readily available to use in car audio as that other free open
    source format called mp3?
     
    pj-mckay I like your SD cards, I like USB sticks, even SSDs in the future
    maybe, but why not put some nice flac on them rather than empty3? Well I
    gues you are forced to aren't you? After all what car audio can play any
    flac? It's outrageous, it's not sensible. It's just market forces that
    always get dumbed down to cater for the masses and I protest it!
     
    .
     
     
     
     
     
    --
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    "lokkerman" <phil.steeples@gmail.com> Nov 29 11:06PM  

    John
     
    Very valid points and for those of us that care, it appears that profit, or
    in a lot of circles greed, comes foremost over global stability, well-being,
    the use of resources and the things us all need to have.
     
    We are in need of the word that has now become a stigma and that is true
    socialism, which is not by any means related to old world communism, but the
    fact that we need to build a society that is balanced and cares and that it
    is not financed by the people at the bottom. It is most obvious that over
    the last ten years that the least pay for the most, which is by nature
    anti-society.
     

     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of John Kleitz
    Sent: 29 November 2012 20:29
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    Point taken, Promise to shut up now. Ta
     
    On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote:
     
    proudly ignorant of topic: check
     
    expresses vehement opinion about that topic: check
     
    declares itself a troll: check
     
    makes typo while boasting of superiority: check
     

     
    You do keep rising to expectations, I'll give you that.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:36, lokkerman wrote:
     
    On nil to me
     

     
    From: surroundsound@googlegroups.com [mailto:surroundsound@googlegroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Steven Sullivan
    Sent: 29 November 2012 20:05
     
     
    To: surroundsound@googlegroups.com
    Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] Re: Surround in the car
     

     
    I know you haven't a clue. No need to elaborate the point further.
     

     
    On 11/30/12 01:30, lokkerman wrote:
     
    And hey I do know that someone who has followed tosh research, with tosh
    dummy heads can come up with tosh dummy science
     
    But in fact it is academically proven (BS, BS. BS) by the tosh dummy heads
    themselves, now how's that for a fact..?
     
    But then if you subscribe to tosh dummy head philosophy, peer reviewed by
    peer tosh dummy heads, it has to be correct hasn't it? Cos' if it wasn't it
    wouldn't be accepted by the tosh dummy heads, therefore got to be right?
    Accepting that tosh dummy head science is correct in the first place,
    however to challenge it you need to be a tosh d
...

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